Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 760 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Karma: 15
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #2 on Mar 29, 2008, 10:49am »
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cool is the book Primeval related or about something completely differant?
If you look back at other threads on the "off topic" board, you'll see there are several to do with this book. It's one of many "tie in" novels being released over the next few months and into next year.
we've been very lucky to have the author as one of our posters on the forum - Steven Savile.
Was released last week and should be available in book shops and on Amazon already.
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #4 on Mar 29, 2008, 8:06pm »
Feel free to ask questions, such as why I did x rather than y, and if I can explain, I will, or I'll stick my fingers in my ears and go njah na ne njah ya... one of the other
Kill the monsters * Take their stuff * Stab your buddy
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Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #5 on Mar 30, 2008, 2:50pm »
One thing I wondered about was the amount of focus placed on the soldiers accompanying the group? Alot more of the time in the book seemed to focus on them as you went into it. It made them feel more realistic about halfway through but towards the end I still wasn't rooting for them as much as the cast. This is likely in part that I know the characters from 10+ hours of television.
Also the book focused alot on Cutter only diverging into the others for short periods. Whilst I feel Cutter is the main character and you can't be blamed for that, things like the section with Stephan going jumping off a cliff seemed incrediably out of place. I kept expecting to see him do something that furthered the plot but other than noticing those two towers nothing really happened that stuck out.
Finally I felt the villain of Chaplin was wasted alittle in that there wasn't a chance for any confrontation between him and Cutter, nor was there any real resolution with the poachers. Stark told Jenny to crack down on them when they got back to England but nothing really happened.
Mostly it felt like Primeval had undergone the change in atmosphere that happened in the transition between Firefly and Serenity. Because of this the book didn't feel like Primeval as it is now but rather a slightly darker primeval, however I put this down to not being in the UK.
Other than that I really enjoyed it. As stated in the other thread. It wasn't a world changing piece of literature but it was fun and fun is hard to pull off. Thus I hope we see another book from you after The Lost Island and Extinction Event and hopefully the return of the serpent as it'd be nice to have more resolution about what on earth it is.
"In not asking you have already arrived at the wrong answer," Shiba Mirabu Primeval Teams 2 and 3: A new forum based rpg recruiting now in the roleplay section (bottom of the forums front page)
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #6 on Mar 30, 2008, 6:11pm »
In terms of the wingsuit scene - that in part came about because of a conversation with Adrian about how into extreme sports he always imagined Stephen would be, but couldn't show it on screen... I did have some other ideas but instead decided it ought to be a single character piece, so we learn a little about Stephen needing the thrill of danger - so rather than developing the story it is aimed at developing the character - imagine that a percentage of folks reading this will never have seen the show...
The poachers is more difficult - it's an ongoing situation in reality that a group like the Primeval team could never solve so I had the choice of setting it up and highlighting what is a real problem in endangered species trade and hint that our guys were also trading in Permian creatures... and doing it that way, it is possible to take out the small group of poachers but not the business behind them... the actual guys doing the poaching, all save the German pretty much wound up dead so I figured that kinda resolved the micro situation if not the macro one It's always going to be difficult though because the deeper you try and make the story and the spinoff characters like the SAS guys, the less screen time you give the crew...
It wasn't an easy choice on point of views though - in a screen show we get equal time because you SEE everyone, but in a book, unless you are writing omniscient, you will see it through the eyes of one character and if you keep changing pov's to focus on a different member of the team, over 200 pages you''ll quickly weaken the characterisation of all, rather than maintaining one key one. So, it was a conscious choice that Cutter was going to be the main eyes and ears for us... I did think about more Abby and Connor time ... but instead tried to maximise the impact of when we do go into their point of views by making them important scenes... such as Abby in the back of the landrover...
And Chaplin... ah... Chaplin... I had so many other plans for him, including a triumphal betrayal etc... but when it came to the writing in the village when the others went chasing... it just felt right that he should come acropper... had I had 200 more pages I suspect he wouldn't have died there... but with a very limited amount of space (originally it was commissioned to be 70k and it ended up at 83K) there was no way to fully explore than angle and still maintain the depth of the back story, so it became a casualty of pages and time... but hopefully the substitution for the big payoff gave something. Actually, as I remember it now, I was asked to throw in a couple of extra creature attacks just before I got to that point, so it became a good way of fulfilling what Impossible wanted...
As to changes - I was told repeatedly to make it dark, and verge as close to frightening as I could in places - I had the scripts, and knew Stephen's fate etc, so assumed the show was going darker for season 2. It's difficult to read tone into a script which is only dialogue.
I do want to write a second... and yes, the final serpent will indeed feature in that book... I would tell you what it is... but that'd spoil the mystery. The clues are in the book though.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 760 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Karma: 15
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #7 on Mar 30, 2008, 9:47pm »
goodness you are a past master at not giving anything away, while giving us a ton of interesting stuff to sink our teeth into.
I'm positively salivating to read the book now.....*checks the letterbox for the umpteenth time*
and I do hope you get to write a sequel......and still within the season two canon....before we lose Stephen forever.....*sniffles*
I can tell you the fans have been up in arms (not those on this forum so much but LiveJournal has been a different matter) and if the impossible team were ever rash enough to poke their noses in, they'd find out just how much Stephen is mourned, and how much they (Adrien and Tim) are disliked (to put it mildly) at this moment in time. When they killed off Ryan is was bad enough, but now.......*shakes head*
....and then to bring in some ringer to take over both roles?? *casts eyes to the heavens*.......idiots!!
Kill the monsters * Take their stuff * Stab your buddy
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 225 Karma: 14
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #9 on Mar 31, 2008, 2:17pm »
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In terms of the wingsuit scene - that in part came about because of a conversation with Adrian about how into extreme sports he always imagined Stephen would be, but couldn't show it on screen... I did have some other ideas but instead decided it ought to be a single character piece, so we learn a little about Stephen needing the thrill of danger - so rather than developing the story it is aimed at developing the character - imagine that a percentage of folks reading this will never have seen the show...
Ah fair enough. It just came abit out of the blue considering that other than being the active and fit member of the group I don't think they really carried across that stephan was into extreme sports in the TV series. This scene suffers possibly from the lack of charactertization of Stephan in the TV series itself.
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The poachers is more difficult - it's an ongoing situation in reality that a group like the Primeval team could never solve so I had the choice of setting it up and highlighting what is a real problem in endangered species trade and hint that our guys were also trading in Permian creatures... and doing it that way, it is possible to take out the small group of poachers but not the business behind them... the actual guys doing the poaching, all save the German pretty much wound up dead so I figured that kinda resolved the micro situation if not the macro one It's always going to be difficult though because the deeper you try and make the story and the spinoff characters like the SAS guys, the less screen time you give the crew...
I didn't really expect the team to force the British Government to crack down on poaching in general but I just wondered whether the German and the remaining few men had been arrested.
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It wasn't an easy choice on point of views though - in a screen show we get equal time because you SEE everyone, but in a book, unless you are writing omniscient, you will see it through the eyes of one character and if you keep changing pov's to focus on a different member of the team, over 200 pages you''ll quickly weaken the characterisation of all, rather than maintaining one key one. So, it was a conscious choice that Cutter was going to be the main eyes and ears for us... I did think about more Abby and Connor time ... but instead tried to maximise the impact of when we do go into their point of views by making them important scenes... such as Abby in the back of the landrover...
I agree that Cutter is the obvious main choice for point of view writing. It'd be interesting to see different characters focus in different books.
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And Chaplin... ah... Chaplin... I had so many other plans for him, including a triumphal betrayal etc... but when it came to the writing in the village when the others went chasing... it just felt right that he should come acropper... had I had 200 more pages I suspect he wouldn't have died there... but with a very limited amount of space (originally it was commissioned to be 70k and it ended up at 83K) there was no way to fully explore than angle and still maintain the depth of the back story, so it became a casualty of pages and time... but hopefully the substitution for the big payoff gave something. Actually, as I remember it now, I was asked to throw in a couple of extra creature attacks just before I got to that point, so it became a good way of fulfilling what Impossible wanted...
It's always a shame when a potentially interesting plot point is lost due to page and word count restrictions however i would have had him killed off anyway and it was a rather minor thing to miss out on. Just hope the villains in the next few books are good enough to be ones which actually make me want to see some resolution with them.
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As to changes - I was told repeatedly to make it dark, and verge as close to frightening as I could in places - I had the scripts, and knew Stephen's fate etc, so assumed the show was going darker for season 2. It's difficult to read tone into a script which is only dialogue.
Just wondering where this book is placed amongst series 2? part of me wants to guess at between episodes 3 and 4 or between 4 and 5.
Quote:
I do want to write a second... and yes, the final serpent will indeed feature in that book... I would tell you what it is... but that'd spoil the mystery. The clues are in the book though.
Well I hope you get the chance. It'd be nice to see the serpent again. Now we just have to hope that we can get the other authors to come onto the forum when their books come out.
Quote:
I can tell you the fans have been up in arms (not those on this forum so much but LiveJournal has been a different matter) and if the impossible team were ever rash enough to poke their noses in, they'd find out just how much Stephen is mourned, and how much they (Adrien and Tim) are disliked (to put it mildly) at this moment in time. When they killed off Ryan is was bad enough, but now.......*shakes head*
Sadly this is just the ignorance of the fans. Stephan's death saving Cutter redeems him for his betrayal and provides motivation for Helen. I was gutted when Wash died in Serenity but it makes sense with the story. Same with Stephan's death. Dislikeing Adrian and Tim over it is just pathetic. It'd be the same as blaming JK for killing Sirus.
"In not asking you have already arrived at the wrong answer," Shiba Mirabu Primeval Teams 2 and 3: A new forum based rpg recruiting now in the roleplay section (bottom of the forums front page)
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 760 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Karma: 15
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #10 on Mar 31, 2008, 11:49pm »
Quote:
Quote:
I can tell you the fans have been up in arms (not those on this forum so much but LiveJournal has been a different matter) and if the impossible team were ever rash enough to poke their noses in, they'd find out just how much Stephen is mourned, and how much they (Adrien and Tim) are disliked (to put it mildly) at this moment in time. When they killed off Ryan is was bad enough, but now.......*shakes head*
Sadly this is just the ignorance of the fans. Stephan's death saving Cutter redeems him for his betrayal and provides motivation for Helen. I was gutted when Wash died in Serenity but it makes sense with the story. Same with Stephan's death. Dislikeing Adrian and Tim over it is just pathetic. It'd be the same as blaming JK for killing Sirus.
I'm not pathetic thank you. And I'm not ignorant. Yes, his heroic death was supposed to 'redeem' him....but from what!! His affair with Helen was 8 years ago....!!! yes, he's a weak minded male when it comes to Helen, but she is an extraordinary, manipulative woman - not unlike Nick Cutter when it comes to getting his own way. Why is it a crime to still be in love with the woman?? Why is he condemed out of hand for firstly having the affair? and secondly for not telling Nick? If he'd been given the chance by Nick to talk this whole issue out, I'm pretty damn sure their friendship would have survived it. Nick wasn't exactly squeaky clean either - he was all but having an affair with Claudia while his wife was still around, so what does that make him??
And I still assert - why have that whole scene at the end of episode seven if it's just to be thrown away as of no account?
Yes I blame the writers......who else has such total control over the fate of the characters if not the writers?? I'm not likely to blame the actors, now am I?? Duh!! That would be like blaming Harry Potter for JK's writing decisions.....
Their reasoning for doing what they've done is flawed...as are the characters. I don't remember Stephen being held up to be the squeakiest character on the series, or any of the others, but he's been the most pilloried and held up for criticism despite the others not being lilly white themselves.
Nick is as manipulative but deeply caring Connor is a committment phobe but lovable Abby is.....bland but feisty Stephen is flawed but heroic Lester is.......Lester Helen is out for herself and watch out anyone who gets in her way....
Kill the monsters * Take their stuff * Stab your buddy
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 225 Karma: 14
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #11 on Apr 1, 2008, 11:20pm »
Sorry Squeezynz that wasn't aimed at you but was rather a general comment.
The reason Stephan is the most critisicsed character is that all he really had going for him was the whole affair thing and the fact that he was the one begining to feel off about the secrecy of it all. Hence my being confused about the whole gliding scene in the book as it had no lead in during the series itself. Its fine to be upset when a character dies but to actively dislike the series or writers over it is always rather petty unless its something which doesn't fit the story. Stephan's redemption was in that he felt he needed to redeem himself. Plus Adrian stated in an interview it felt the natural progression of the character to lay down his life for Nick and Helen. I'll be honest it felt natural to me as well. Anyway we're off topic here. If you want to debate it with me more feel free to pm me.
"In not asking you have already arrived at the wrong answer," Shiba Mirabu Primeval Teams 2 and 3: A new forum based rpg recruiting now in the roleplay section (bottom of the forums front page)
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 760 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Karma: 15
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #12 on Apr 2, 2008, 12:57am »
"The book arrived, the book arrived"
.....it's so shiny.......*admires the shiny*......and so smooth....*strokes the smooth*.........Steven, you must be so proud.....
...and my copy is a hardback....I wasn't expecting that!!! I thought it would be a paperpack....not that it would have been rejected if it was....its just having a hardback makes it extra special.....*strokes the cover again*
......my first happy moment in days of not-so-happy-moments......
Re: Shadow of the Jaguar *Spoiler Thread* « Reply #13 on Apr 2, 2008, 7:28pm »
I think Stephen suffers hugely as a character because of the reboot at the end of S1 - suddenly his entire place in the series is undermined... there's no love-triangle frisson with Connor and Stephen and Abby anymore - which was far more powerful than the Helen fling... and once that was removed what was he? I mean he's supposed to be dynamic, sporty, etc but we aren't shown anything like that. Of course, he has to redeem himself by saving Cutter, it's the classic sacrifice and it loops around on that first episode of s2 when he did just the same but without getting himself killed... but what we had in s1 was a team with an identifiable leader and a second, and then the others, but s2 blurred his role as #2.
I repeat though, I don't for a minute think he's done for good - that last scene hints at something else happening - and face it, if it plays badly to the audience there is a big shiny reset button again...
Review & Competition from The Medium Is Not Enough blog.
PrimevalReview: Primeval - Shadow of the Jaguar Posted 16 hours ago
Pay close attention, gentle reader. At the end of this, there's going to be a competition – a first for this 'ere blog – in which you're going to be able to win an actual real thing that you can own and that will arrive through the post, rather than through a Superpoke on Facebook.
But first, a question. Who do you think a novel based on Primeval would be aimed at? I ask this because I have a copy of the first in Titan's new range of Primeval novels and I'm slightly curious as to the thinking process behind it.
Primeval is something of a family show, going out on Saturdays, nice 'n' early in the evening. Yet, Shadow of the Jaguar is definitely not something you should be giving to the kiddies.
Plot In this brand new original never-seen-on-TV Primeval adventure Cutter, Stephen, Abbie, Connor and the rest of the team have a bigger challenge on their hands than they could have possibly imagined as they head for the Peruviuan rainforest.
Is it any good? As a TV tie-in, Primeval - Shadow of the Jaguar is something of a surprise. Firstly, it's a quality piece of printing. It's a hardback, rather than some tatty softback; it's 246 pages or so long and set in relatively small, narrowly leaded type rather than the 14pt Frutiger Vast that many tie-ins arrive in; yet it's only £6.99 (£4.89 on Amazon). Give them their dues: Titan clearly aren't trying to rip anyone off here.
Secondly, this is not something you should be waving in front of the eyes of the young and impressionable dinosaur-lover in your family. This is for teenagers at the very least.
The plot itself is relatively basic. Cutter and his team of slightly rubbish dinosaur investigators head off to Peru to see if something that's been killing tourists and the natives has come through the first non-British anomaly. There they come across conspiracies and beasties, as you've no doubt come to expect.
Where is differs from the on-screen plots is in the introduction of a team of SAS soldiers who come with Cutter and co to act as protection against whatever they come across, whether it be man or beast. I'd say fully a quarter of the story is taken up by these guys, so much so it sometimes feels like the author, Steven Savile, would rather be writing an Andy McNab-esque tale of daring-do, rather than something about the Primeval team.
There's also a small amount of swearing – and a hefty amount of gore. Really nasty gore. While Primeval will always turn away from a dinosaur making a meal of something – or someone – Primeval is very willing to talk about evisceration, tendons and muscles being ripped apart and so on. And there's a pretty high body count from dinosaur attacks, explosions, shootings, throat cuttings and more. I think I even went a little pale at times.
Curiously, Savile is also reticent about bringing the dinos to centre stage. While he peppers the beginning of the story with a couple of attacks, it's not really until two-thirds of the way through the story that Cutter and co get to meet the kritter. He fills this prep time with a curious combination of spy and soldier stuff, thanks to the SAS red shirts, as well as "author's over-research syndrome". In case you're unaware of the tragic condition, it's when an author has done a hideous amount of research and, not wanting to waste it or because they need to hit a certain page count, he or she dumps it all on the page. There are pages of native guides discussing the destruction of the Amazonian rain forest, pages of Connor spewing forth all his research on the old gods of the Incas, even two whole paragraphs devoted to Connor's MP3 mix choices and one on the tracks available on the in-car tape player available to Team Cutter.
I'm not sure how much it stands up to scrutiny, though. The sheer amount of detail about Peru, including little nuggets like the fact they have white taxis there, makes me think Savile's probably been there; yet for all the loving detail paid to the SAS guys, even the most casual of Andy McNab readers would find issues with it (why for instance would 'Stark' need to have been with the Gurkhas in Cambodia to have jungle warfare experience when an SAS's initial training includes jungle warfare tactics in Malaysia and Brunei?).
Still, all this research does mean one thing, at least: Cutter and co actually seem like they might have been to university. While the early evening, kiddie slot on ITV1 means that long words are almost verboten on the TV show, Connor, Cutter, Steven and Abby gas on about isoprenoids; Jenny muses about the Aristotelian concept of the soul; even the SAS guys are quoted from Shakespeare.
Of the main characters, Abbie gets very little to do except tend wounds and bicker with Connor; Stephen ends up with even less personality and action-time than he does on-screen (I even forgot he was there for a while), But Cutter, Connor and Jenny get a reasonable number of paragraphs each and come out of it relatively rounded. However, Cutter gets the lion's share of the book and spends most of it moping after Jenny and generally being dour.
Nevertheless, the book races along at a good clip, once it gets over its initial tussle with a thesaurus:
The rainforest spoke with the tongues of Peruvian devils… the place was alive with the constant chittering of insects; the deep-throated rumbles of the yellow-backed toads; the raucous caws of the colourful birds…the scuttle of tuco-tuco, sloths and opossum through the thick vegetation; the slithering of the lachesis muta through the thick grasses; the soft susurrus of the leaves…
Description is minimal after that initial phase, except where it serves to demonstrate research. Dialogue is mostly pretty good, except where Savile gets bitten by the purple prose bug (p158, for example, has this classic from Cutter: "You are a good man, Connor Temple. You've got a good heart. But this, this goes beyond heart and courage into a world of injustice that even the biggest heart can't conquer.")
But most of the time, Savile paints a convincing portrait of Peru and a bunch of rubbish action heroes but not bad scientists seriously out of their depth among Bad People. If you enjoy an action story, this ain't bad and if you're looking for something for a teenager, particularly a teenage boy, this would probably go down well. It also hints at some of the untapped possibilities of the show that time slot and budget prohibit it from doing.
Rating: 6/10
Competition time As mentioned, now's your chance to win an actual, honest-to-goodness prize. Since this was a review copy sent to me by Titan and I don't have much of a use for it anymore, the prize is a lovely pristine review copy of Primeval - Shadow of the Jaguar. I'll post it to you and everything (so only UK readers are eligible for entry since my largesse has limits).
All you have to do is leave an amusing comment below – preferably Primeval related and avoiding anything along the lines of "Doyouthinkhesaurus". The most amusing comment, which will be arbitrarily chosen by me on 16th April 2008, will win the book. I'll announce the prize on the blog, so don't forget to include your email address when leaving the comment – it won't be published, don't worry – so that I can let you know you've won and get a postal address off you. Good luck!
Read other posts about: Primeval 4 Comments For This Post JaneHenry wrote: 14 hours ago | Reply
OK brain not in gear just yet for the clever competition. Actually I may pass on that as it's not my forte...
But in answer to your question, with my editorial hat on and on the dubious premise that once upon a time I really was a children's book editor, I think the following things may apply: 1) Titan tend to do graphic novels, so this is appealing at their market. ie, Conor type geeks. (with apologies to graphic novel readers, I happen to like them, but that is their core readership, sorry...) It does allow them to go all grown up and aggressive. But usually it works the other way round, as in Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles which were not nearly so cuddly in the original 2)Sounds like a fairly typical book-from-tv. You say the writer sounds as if he would rather be writing something else. He probably does. I did lots and lots of tv-tieins and frankly they are soul destroying to work on. You know the real creativity and fun has gone into making a tv programme, producing a book from it just feels like second best. The ONLY tie in I can think of that stood up on its own merits was actually a novelisation of a film: My Girl. Can't remember the author. Have never seen the film, but the book made me cry (and not with horror as did so many dire tie ins I worked on). 3)They may have muddled their market and it might appeal to no one. My sprogs would likely read a Primeval comic (in fact, note to self, I think they might already have), but suspect they would be less interested in a book. We have Dr Who annuals and a couple of books, but they are less interested in them for the reasons mentioned above.
Tie ins are a funny old market. You're normally in and out to make a quick buck. It seems strange this should come out now, unless it's out to tie in to the release of the DVD. They'd have got much more mileage when it was on tv. But then it doesn't sound like this is going to appeal to the core audience, so maybe that doesn't matter to them.
Rob replied to JaneHenry's comment: 14 hours ago | Reply
Apparently, "Steven Savile is a highly respected media tie-in writer who was nominated for the International Media Tie-In Writer's SCRIBE Award in 2007 for his novel Slaine: The Exile. He was runner-up in the British Fantasy Awards in 2000, and won the L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future Award in 2002. He has written extensively for the high profile properties Star Wars, Warhammer (Black Library), Dr Who and Torchwood as well as his own fiction."
I don't think that Titan are going for a quick buck here. The quality is too good and the price too low.
I actually liked the novelisation of the 80s Flash Gordon movie, because it was so mentally off its head. It had Ming telling his daughter, "Daughter, I feel we have not been so close of late. We should take off all our clothes and whip each other." I'm not sure that's the exact quote, but it's pretty close...
Anonymous wrote: 1 hour ago | Reply
I think that the various Dr Who ranges have raised the bar somewhat for UK sf tie-ins, both in terms of the need for better writing and the actual look and feel of the books. That said, the amount of gore in this one makes it sound less like the new RTD Who-style books and more like the much-missed Virgin/BBC lines.
I should really try and think of something witty since I'll likely buy the book for my eldest (who loves Primeval) but there's just too much pressure...
Marie wrote: 38 minutes ago | Reply
I'm too nervous to comment now in case I accidentally say something witty and win the book, which I don't want.
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It's always going to be difficult though because the deeper you try and make the story and the spinoff characters like the SAS guys, the less screen time you give the crew... 
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